Mrs. Clinton vs. Little Ricky II
by The Editors

Sunday, Oct. 8, 2000 -- NEW YORK (AmpolNS) -- WCBS local political correspondent Marcia Kramer hosted the second Hillary Clinton-Rick Lazio debate.

Question one concerned the state of New York losing millions in federal funding when D'Amato left the Senate.  Huh?  Mrs. Clinton said that Lazio can rest easy, she won't be coming to his podium! The audience laughed out loud.  Mrs. Clinton said she intends to fight for New York -- and that the problem is that the Senate is dominated by people who do not agree with proposals that would benefit New York.  Lazio, like Clinton, said he was looking forward to working with Schumer (yeah, sure), then claimed he could cooperate with Democrats.

Kramer asked if Lazio was proud of working with Gingrich when the government was shut down.  Lazio called the question inaccurate (nonsense -- he was Newt's junior whip), then talked education and defense -- and claimed that the things he did with Gingrich helped education.  Mrs. Clinton said that it was not Lazio's association with Gingrich that bothered her -- it was his voting the Gingrich line.  She pointed out Lazio's comment on Meet the Russert that Lazio called Gingrich a prominent historical figure.

Kramer then showed that she is a stalking horse for the new moralists when she had the nerve to ask Mrs. Clinton why she "stayed with" her husband after their private problems.  Mrs. Clinton said she did the right thing, for her family and for herself.  She talked about her own faith, and then talked about her experience as a woman, tying it to broader women's issues.  Lazio took the high road, saying it was Mrs. Clinton's choice and he respected it -- but instead they both should have jumped down Kramer's deep throat for reaching into Clinton's trousers, he attacked Mrs. Clinton's views.

Kramer asked Lazio to pick the Supreme Court member who most typifies his views. Lazio -- wisely -- picked Sandra Day O'Connor (very slick move -- she's more or less a moderate).  Lazio also said there should be no litmus test for judicial appointments (not so slick, he sounded like an evasive Republican), but tipped his hand when he talked "precedent" -- he was talking states' so-called rights, not Roe v. Wade.  Mrs. Clinton said the fate of the court hangs in the balance, and that Bush admires anti-choice jurists Thomas and Scalia.

CNN's Jeff Greenfield prefaced his first question by saying that some Democrats including John Kerrey like partial Social Security privatization, some favor vouchers, some favor across-the-board tax cuts, and then claimed in his question that Dems want to deprive people of choice.  Mrs. Clinton said that urban schools are in fact underfunded and siphoning off money (i.e. a voucher scheme) is no answer -- get class size down and find qualified teachers.  She also supports adding 100,000 teachers and Lazio opposes it.  There is, she said, vigorous disagreement.  Lazio tried to call Mrs. Clinton a liar, saying he had voted twice to add teachers (how many? a dozen?) and that he "trusts people," that kids should go to schools where they can learn and poor parents should have the choice where they go (as if there will be room for them, Ricky).

Greenfield said women in New York can get an abortion whenever they want it (not entirely true) -- should there be laws on late-term abortions?  Lazio said that most New Yorkers want to ban "partial birth abortions" -- and that a supporter of Mrs. Clinton developed "partial birth abortions."  Mrs. Clinton deflated Lazio's assertion when she said that Lazio in effect was lying -- that she could support a ban on late-term abortions if the health of the mother is protected.  Mrs. Clinton even pointed to the opinion of Sandra  O'Connor to bolster her view.

Lars-Erik Nelson of the New York Daily News asked Mrs. Clinton about the failure of her health task force in the early years of the Administration, and about current legislation to give patients greater access and rights.  Mrs. Clinton said that there had in fact been progress on medical issues, and it's time to build on it -- including parity for mental health.  Lazio, she added, opposed the bipartisan Patient's Bill of Rights and the weak GOP Prescription bill.  Lazio said that Mrs. Clinton's 1993 plan would have been a disaster, claiming WRONGLY that health care would have been rationed and teaching hospitals destroyed.

Nelson asked Lazio about the possibility that the Democrats may take the Senate and that the GOPers who run the Senate are anti-New York -- why should New Yorkers even consider voting for Lazio so they can keep the Senate in GOP hands?  Lazio talked about how great Pataki is -- BUT HE'S GOVERNOR, YOU DOLT!  Lazio said he'd be flexible and cross party lines (but we don't buy it -- his current voting record isn't exactly the epitome of bipartisanship).  He talked about his legislative initiatives -- those that make him look nonpartisan.  Mrs. Clinton said that Lazio's first vote would be to support Lott!  Time and time again, she said, Lazio has cast his lot with people who do not have New York's interest at heart.

A reporter from the New York Times asked about the perception that the drug war is a failure, and prisons are packed with nonviolent drug offenders.  Why have we heard nothing from you?  Mrs. Clinton gave lie to the assertion, saying she supported courts for low-level offenders that would base their judgment on treatment -- and that more treatment must be made available.  She also pointed out that drugs are a trade issue.  Lazio LIED when he said that there's been a "dramatic" increase in drug use among kids (the fact is this has NEVER been accurately measured until recently and may have been worse a decade ago).

The same reporter then asked about voluntary deals not to use soft money -- and their failure.  Will Lazio reconsider supporting McCain-Feingold?  Lazio said he had supported campaign finance reform -- saying he had intended to abide by McCain-Feingold (only because he knew he could not raise much soft money in the first place).  But Lazio opposes public funding of campaigns, arguing that people should make the choice.  Clinton said she could support public funding -- but that Lazio's campaign violated the agreement he had proposed, as reported in the New York Times!  She then said that if he broke that agreement, how could he be trusted by New Yorkers with real issues?  Great retort -- so effective we doubt the Clinton-hating media will pick it up on the evening news.

There was a question about reparations to Holocaust victims -- what about African-Americans?  Mrs. Clinton said that America has to come to grips with psychological reparations first -- and do the things that will help minorities.  Lazio went back to the last question: "Please, no lectures from Motel 1600."  This got a laugh from some ditzy bimbos in the audience.  Lazio said he wants to bypass the issue of reparations altogether -- in other words, he's not too well-versed in minority issues.

Should Justice Department monitors oversee NYPD?  Lazio said New Yorkers could take care of themselves -- and the Justice Department has no business in New York City to watch the police -- the streets are safer than ever, and the Giuliani Administration did it (hey, Li'l Ricky, they used the Dinkins-Bratton plan!).  Mrs. Clinton then slammed Lazio for claiming that a "grasping for loopholes" comment came not from her, but the New York Times.  Mrs. Clinton supports a "protect and respect" approach to law enforcement.

A reporter asked about the U.S. abstaining from what he characterized as one of the most anti-Israel resolutions ever in the UN.  Mrs. Clinton said that the U.S. should have vetoed it -- because the responsibility for quashing the violence lies with Arafat.  She called for a return to the peace table -- and aid for the Palestinians when they stop the violence and anti-Israel propaganda.  Lazio said that he had issued a statement immediately, slamming the failure of the U.S. to use their veto power. Lazio said it sends all the wrong messages, and that he has a 100% pro-Israeli-security voting record.

The same reporter asked about  comment on character he makes in his stump speech -- how do they apply to Mrs. Clinton?  Lazio REFUSED to answer, instead talking about his own "demonstrated... integrity" and the huge margins by which his rich district have voted for him.  He talked about his kids.  He talked about "obligation [and] honor" when he was cut off.  Mrs. Clinton said she too was the granddaughter of immigrants and the daughter of a small businessman, but that she believed we have to stand up for each other.  Look at Lazio's pro-Gingrich voting record, she retorted.

Does Mrs. Clinton support a domed stadium for Manhattan's West Side?  Mrs. Clinton said no -- because New York City's infrastructure needs and those of the state are greater.  She also disagrees with Lazio on the repeal of the gas tax, because New York gets back more than it gives.  Lazio said that New York should get the Jets and the Giants back -- and that the plan also expands convention space.  He added that private money should also be involved.  He tried to retort on the gas tax but ran out of time.

Upstate New York has little in the way of airports.  NYC is clogged beyond belief.  How do we fix it?  Lazio wants airports opened to low-cost carriers but does not want to see airports overburdened.  Mrs. Clinton agrees -- but pointed out that environmental effects must be taken into account.  

The next question sounded a TRICK question -- about the fake "Bill 602P" you have probably read about when someone forwarded what is a bogus claim that Congress wants to tax email messages!  Had Kramer been bamboozled -- or was this a setup?  Based on Marcia's description, Mrs. Clinton, who said she was not aware of such a bill,  said she would not support such a bill.  Mrs. Clinton talked about wiring schools and taking advantage of the new Internet economy, including broadband access.  She did a great job talking about her view on the Internet.  Lazio fell for it too -- acting as if the bill were real -- saying he opposed it as if it were a real bill and that he had voted for a moratorium on Internet taxes!

Folks, it looks like Kramer got fooled -- but so did Lazio!  He should know there is no such bill -- HE'S IN CONGRESS!

Kramer then asked about Ariel Sharon's visit to the "Temple Mount" in Jerusalem.  Lazio talked about Palestinian camps that teach children to kill Israelis.  He blamed Arafat and claimed that the survival of Judaism hinges on Israel's survival.  Talk about hyperbole -- but it was tailored to draw Jewish support.  Mrs. Clinton refused to point fingers, calling for open access to holy sites.  Violence and desecration must end.

The supposed last question: "Define a New Yorker." Mrs. Clinton said that New York is a magnet for people all around the world -- a place to stake your claim and build your dreams.  She said that she's been having an extraordinary time -- and she seeks to build a better future for New Yorkers.  Lazio talked about "telling it like it is," ethnic diversity, getting an effective person to represent them, building giant buildings... yes, building giant buildings!  What was that about?

There was time for one more question -- on gas prices and energy strategy.  Lazio claimed there was no energy strategy and that Bill Richardson said that "we were caught napping."  Lazio wants the U.S. to strong-arm Saudi Arabia and Kuwait to drop prices, and to increase pumping in America.  Mrs. Clinton has spoken about the need for an energy policy, including fuel conservation tax credits -- which the GOP leadership of which Lazio as a member has blocked!  Lazio missed a vote on setting up a Northeast oil reserve.

Final statements: Mrs. Clinton said that Lazio's campaign has sent out a letter with six words about running against Mrs. Clinton.  She invoked seven words: "jobs, health, education, SS, environment, choice." Lazio asked about bipartisanship and alliances, and his "lifelong" devotion to New York.  He said it's time to send a message nationwide, that we trust people over government.  He didn't accost Mrs. Clinton with any documents.

Wow -- the debate was far more civil and to-the-point than the Russert-moderated fiasco! There was little bickering over the shattered deal on banning soft-money.  Marcia Kramer showed some talent as a moderator, and we can she's a pretty solid local political reporter, but she stumbled twice.  First, she did herself no credit by bringing up private Clinton family issues.  Second, she or her staff should have done their homework on "Bill 602P" -- a nonexistent bill that is an Internet hoax. That was just plain sloppy on Kramer's and WCBS's part.

Lazio came across as less smarmy and snide than he had in the first debate -- and this time, there were no props and no stunts.  But he was not as specific as Mrs. Clinton on many issues -- although he was far less ambiguous than either Bush or Cheney during their debate appearances.  Mrs. Clinton staked out her specific positions with unambiguous clarity, smiled a lot more, and struck a solid balance between assertiveness and warmth, looking far more senatorial than Lazio.

The media is likely to latch onto Lazio's snotty "Motel 1600" cheap shot as the sound bite du jour.  Don't let the fool you -- Hillary won by a long shot in every respect.